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"Irish Pennants" - some thoughts on being offended

4/13/2020

18 Comments

 
Picture
Waud, Alfred R. (Alfred Rudolph), 1828-1891, artist / Public domain
My uncle was a US Marine.  Like many Marines, he came out of his service with a fanatical sense of order and cleanliness.  Boy, do they ever bang that into their heads in the Corps!  Anyway, from him I learned the term "Irish pennant"--a stray thread or scrap of fabric in his uniform.  The term comes from the British navy, first recorded use in 1829 to refer to any untidy or loose end of rope, or out-of-place line.  Its use in the US Marines for untidy threads on a uniform developed later. 

My question today is whether the term is offensive.  Its history was almost certainly derogatory: a pennant is a flag; to say that an untidy mess is an Irish flag is to suggest the Irish are untidy messes.  An obvious dig.  But an offensive origin story doesn't make something offensive forever.
For a case study, let's look at the word "Welsh".  Its etymology, according to World Wide Words, is "an Old English word meaning 'foreigner; slave' and at first was applied by the Anglo-Saxons to all the native peoples of Britain".  Rather than call themselves "foreigners" or "slaves", proud Welsh people may choose to use their own language to name themselves: the Cymry people.  But that word isn't widely known; even the most ardent of the Cymry would still have to call themselves Welsh to the wider English-speaking world, or no-one would know what they meant!  However, according to this dictionary (powered by Oxford), the etymology of "Welsh" goes further back than the Anglo Saxon's use of it: their word "Wælisc" for "foreigner; slave" came from the Latin Volcae, the name of a Celtic people.  It might not have meant "slave" originally, and it doesn't mean "slave" now.  So is it offensive because at one point in its history people used it that way? 

Perhaps the word "Welsh" isn't offensive now that the "slave" roots are obscured by time, but the use of it as a verb meaning "to renege on a deal" is offensive, because it implies the Welsh people are dishonest.  And it's interesting that the dictionary I linked to chose to put the offensive verb before the inoffensive noun.  Why should "welshing on a deal" come before "Welsh, the people or language of Wales" in any dictionary? 

"Irish Pennant", on the other hand, is elevated by being verbed!  Beyond simply calling a stray thread on his uniform an "Irish pennant", my uncle would say he was "Irish pennanting" his uniform, meaning "inspecting for loose ends and cutting them off neatly".  In that case, the Irish are now associated with the act of cleaning up and making ship-shape, whereas before they were associated with being untidy.  Funny, that. 

I am always reflective of what makes something offensive so I can avoid it.  Alas, offensiveness isn't some kind of Y/N toggle or trait, where I can just think "Oh, X is offensive but Y is not".  It's situational, fluid.  There are several components: the intent to offend, the taking of offense, and whether others have been offended so before.  The first two are obvious:
  1. If I call you a ninnyhammer, in jest, and you laugh, there's no offense. 
  2. If I call you a fopdoodle, in jest, and you get hurt, then there was an accidental offense, and I should apologize. 
  3. If I call you a mumpsimus in earnest, and you laugh, there was an intended offense, but it bounced back and hit me in the nose. 
  4. If I call you a numpty in earnest, and you get hurt, there was a successful offense. 
But what about "whether others have been offended so before"?  That's trickier, isn't it?  My family ancestry is French Canadian, and my parents always said we were Canucks.  Imagine my surprise to find online that some consider "Canuck" a slur!  Is it offensive just because some people sometimes mean it or take it that way?
. . . though even words like “juju-flop,” “swut,” and “turlingdrome” are now perfectly acceptable in common usage, there is one word that is still beyond the pale. The concept it embodies is so revolting that the publication or broadcast of the word is utterly forbidden in all parts of the galaxy except one - where they don’t know what it means. That word is “Belgium” and it is only ever used by loose-tongued people like Zaphod Beeblebrox in situations of dire provocation.
-- ’The Hitch-Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy’, by Douglas Adams.  Radio show transcript.
I suspect that those who think "Canuck" is a slur think so for the same reason that some people think "sissy" is a slur: it says more about their disrespect for the referenced group than the word itself.  If you think it's offensive to call a man a woman, it's because you think being a woman is lesser, contemptible.  If you think a regional/ethnic nickname is a slur (despite the fact that the people of that region/ethnicity use it for themselves), it's because you think that group is lesser, contemptible.  In that case it's you intending to offend, but whether the target takes offense is entirely up to them!  Let's say someone tries to put me down by saying I run or throw like a girl (which I totally do): should I take offense just that person wants me to?  Or, if someone says, without meaning to offend, that I'm girly (which I totally am), should I take offense where none was meant, just because "girly" has been used as an insult in the past?  I think not.  That would be a waste of energy, and the only people who waste energy taking unnecessary offense are narcissists, high on their own supply.  Reasonable people understand that a word alone is not offensive. 
"And since then, O Kings and Ladies, I have been wandering to find him and my happiness is so great that it even weakens me like a wound.  And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me, Beloved, me who am but as a dog--"
"Eh?  What's that?" said one of the Dogs. 
"Sir," said Emeth.  "It is but a fashion of speech which we have in Calormen."
"Well, I can't say it's one I like very much," said the Dog. 
"He doesn't mean any harm," said an older Dog.  "After all, we call our puppies, Boys, when they don't behave properly!"
"So do we," said the first Dog.  "Or girls." 
"S-s-sh!" said the Old Dog.  "That's not a nice word to use.  Remember where you are!" 
The Last Battle, C.S. Lewis
Another example from my own life: I once told the man I was dating that I was from "French stock".  He got a little upset and said it was racist to say "stock" because it suggested people were animals (livestock) and referenced the selective breeding of slaves in American history.  I had innocently thought it was a soup metaphor: as ingredients are blended in a stock and become integral to the soup that comes from it, so people's ancestors make the people!  Both uses of the word stock are acceptable definitions.  I'm still unsure whether "stock" is offensive in the context of lineage, or whether he was just sensitive to it. 
Back to Irish pennants... the English sailors who first called untidy ropes "Irish pennants" did so because they thought the Irish were contemptible, lesser.  They intended to offend, or at least intended to use their language to reinforce their ascendancy over a people they didn't respect.  But so far as I can see, no-one currently means to slur the Irish when they use this nautical lingo.  If anything, they simply mean to signal their membership in a group: seamen.  The next question is whether Irish people are hurt by the term.  That I don't know.  I couldn't find anything online to say yea or nay.  The lack of outcry against the term makes me think Irish people either don't know or don't care! 

At any rate, I am neither a seaman nor Irish, so I suppose when I am ironing and find a stray thread that needs to be clipped off my clothing, I ought to just call it something else.  How about "straggle-end"?  "Tail"?  "whisker"? 

WORKS CITED

Adams, Douglas.  "The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (Fit the Tenth).  BBC Radio 4: 23rd January 1980.  Transcribed by Clive Banks, The Science Fiction and Telefantasy Databanks: https://www.clivebanks.co.uk/THHGTTG/THHGTTGradio10.htm.  Accessed 1 April, 2020. 

"Balderdash and Flummery."  World Wide Words, Michael Quinion, http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/welsh.htm.  Accessed 29 Mar. 2020.

"Canuck."  Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canuck.  Accessed 1 April, 2020. 

“Irish pennant.”  Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Irish%20pennant.  Accessed 29 Mar. 2020.

Lewis, C. S.  The Last Battle.  The Bodley Head, 1956. 

"The History of the Term "Irish Pennant."  British Militaria Forums, Tapatalk Inc, https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/the-history-of-the-term-irish-pennant-t8917.html.  Accessed 29 Mar. 2020.

"Welsh."  Lexico Dictionary, Powered by Oxford, https://www.lexico.com/definition/welsh.  Accessed 29 Mar. 2020. 

Zorn, Eric.  "Is 'Canuck' an Ethnic Slur?"  Change of Subject (Op-Ed Column), Chicago Tribune: Sunday, May 02, 2010.  https://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2010/05/is-canuck-an-ethnic-slur.html.  Accessed 29 Mar. 2020.
18 Comments
The (Sissy) Sister
4/13/2020 02:11:07 pm

Well, I always thought it was "welching" on a deal, not "welshing"! Who knew!?

Reply
Karen Roy link
4/13/2020 06:26:54 pm

Well, that's a raisinable mistake to make, but actually "welching" on a deal is when you run out of juice and deliver a glass half empty. Then the other person is ungrapeful,, and sometimes they wine.

Reply
The Sister
4/14/2020 10:11:09 am

Wow, I couldn't read that without wincing. Also, kudos for making all your puns grape-themed! Well done, dork! :D

Darin King
11/9/2020 07:50:37 pm

At what point is it a 50/50 deal, what is said as to what is received?
You said at the outset, it was first used to describe any untidy or loose end of rope, or out-of-place line. Those are safety items, not a reflection directly into a slight against a group of people. But if I referred to a small string hanging off of a pocket or seam, I couldn't imagine someone being offended by it...
I mean, a previous commenter called you a dork, I highly doubt you look like a whale penis... But if you were offended that someone feels like you look like a whale penis, is that all on them, or maybe 50/50? Just my $0.02 worth. Not that it matters. And I'm quite sure you don't look like a Whales penis...
Of course, now that I've looked it up to be sure, it appears dork is loosely coupled with Whale penises, but there is no direct reference as a name that describes a whale penis... So maybe being a Dork, is less offensive to some... C'est la Vie.

Reply
darius
12/19/2020 10:15:31 pm

You sir are a cuck

Reply
Norm
1/10/2022 02:56:00 am

I enjoyed your article as I am often curious about the origin of words and expressions. I’m also frequently amused by the selective outrage many people exhibit as they they take great offernse at the most innocent verbal mistake of anyone that they dislike and overlook egregious violations of their friends or comrades. Thanks

Reply
Brett
2/8/2022 12:40:32 pm

Karen,
Thank you so much for your researchand insight. I recently retired from the Marine Corps and never knew the origin, hence my looking it up as a reference when people ask me about my odd terms and phrases. We (Marines) like out sister services and certain industries have so many terms and phrases tied to history, and in todays world of increased sensitivity to hisotrical references and usage aticles like yours really do help to inspire thought and productive conversation. Even if you are offended by grapes and dorks (I can use dork because I am in fact one-in the nerdy sense).

Reply
Kevin
3/1/2022 12:20:39 pm

Hey Brett!

Begs the question:
Should Marines onboard a US Navy ship be referred to as "Passengers" or "Cargo"? :)

Fair wind and following seas. Thanks for your service.

Kevin
Formerly IC2, USN

Reply
Vyper3000
4/4/2022 09:36:53 pm

Ahh, Kevin! The correct answer is 'neither'. it is well established that Marines onboard a US Navy ship should always be referred to as "Sir"... ;-)

My deepest respect!

Formerly 2311 USMC

John
4/16/2022 11:15:01 am

I only recently found this term while reading “A Captain Unafraid” about Dynamite Johnny O’Brien. I’m Irish and I’m not offended by it because it’s part of a bigger tradition of exaggeration in Irish culture that the Irish themselves created. So “Irish coffee” has whiskey in it. Confetti is normally made of paper but at one time “Irish confetti” referred to stones thrown en masse during a riot or faction fight. It’s usually a noun or adjective denoting something small or harmless which is actually the opposite. So a modern example might be calling an ICBM “a wee Irish bullet”. A second point is that a the “Irish” adjective was used to describe something that was rooted in poverty so “an Irish castle” would be a broken down cottage. There’s always an opposite, a sarcasm and a bit of truth to the expressions and you’re not always sure as to what degree. Which is what can make them either really funny or really insulting lol. The Irish aren’t the only people to do this, I’m just saying that it seems to been a thing that carried over from the Irish language and so was picked up by the English speaking world. The Irish pennants phrase for example, it could have been coined by an Irishman himself as the Royal Navy was full of Irish Catholics before emancipation.
And just as a side note, on September 23, 1779, John Paul Jones, captain of the Bonhomme Richard, faced two British ships off Flamborough Head, the Serapis and Countess of Scarborough. He had on board 137 marines serving on the ship with him. They were members of the Irish Brigade of France (Regiment de Walsh-Serrant). Made up of Irish exiles, some recent and some the descendants of men who had gone to France over the last 100 years. The Irish marines, who had been serving on a French ship, jumped at the chance to transfer to the Bohomme Richard when given the opportunity. The motto of the Irish Brigade was “Semper et ubique Fidelis”. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the Marines changed their motto to “Semper Fi” in 1883 at the initiative of Colonel Charles McCawley, the 8th Commandant of the Marine Corps.
Sorry for the rant but who else will listen to all this? Lol

Reply
Katey Walsh
5/5/2022 11:13:10 am

Here’s a crazy thought. Why not call a stray thread a stray thread, rather than risk offending an entire nation.

Reply
Dwayne MacDonald
9/14/2022 11:16:33 am

Because it's a clever and amusing turn of phrase, and offensive to nobody? Don't be that Karen, Katey.

Reply
Dot Cotton
5/13/2023 03:03:50 pm

Clever how? Amusing to whom? Derogatory remarks to a nationality does not equate to wittiness. As an Irish person myself, and only just learning of this phrase today, I can’t say I found it clever or amusing. My initial reaction was, “wow, the English really can’t seem to go 5 seconds without deliberately trying to piss off and condescend on other nationalities.”
Wonder what “clever and amusing” turn of phrase we’ll discover by them next. Perhaps something rude about Indians, or maybe the Native Americans if we’re lucky.

Michael H Oritt
7/3/2023 11:22:01 am

Because it's a clever and amusing turn of phrase"
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm dense--please point out the "clever anbd amusing" part.

Dwayne MacDonald
7/3/2023 11:28:29 am

"I'm dense." Yes, apparently.

Speedy
3/3/2024 04:50:36 am

Hey Karen,
A friend of mine sent me a “meme” (not sure that’s the correct term) which said. “ the Irish are suing Lucky Charms because it’s offensive, just kidding their not suing because the Irish aren’t P#####s!” So don’t worry about offending the Irish with such an insignificant term. I think it’s kinda funny and I’m of Irish decent and also a former US Marine. The Irish Americans had to overcome much more than a silly little saying. For instance “Help wanted - NINA” and “Paddy wagon”, being portrayed by the New York Times as drunken monkeys. In Ireland, the British removing the roofs from Irish homes in the winter to evict them. It goes on and on, so “Irish Pennant” no worries.

Reply
MaggyC
2/21/2023 11:20:05 am

Just been looking for this online as I described some boats, on telly, sailing around Plymouth Sound as ‘not real sailors, look at the Irish pennants!’
The ropes hanging over the sides after you get under way if you can’t be arsed squaring them away.
Like real sailors would.
My wife didn’t know what I was on about then refused to believe it was a term.
It was.
I can remember it being beaten into me.
Like stowing wire, one coil going the other way, as it’s flaked, is called a ‘Frenchman’.
Of course it’s derogatory.
We were sailors for goodness sake.
I’ll have a drop of rum and see if I can remember any more.

Reply
Justin
2/3/2026 03:03:28 pm

Call it a Muslim Pennant

Reply



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